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The OWS people call what they're doing "civil disobedience," but whenever someone gets hurt there's an outrage. I do not understand.
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What? Peaceful protest should be met with a peaceful response, yes?
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Civil disobedience is breaking a law and bearing the consequences in order to point out that the law is unjust. Whining defeats the purpose
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Last time I knew, “beatings” are not in the penal code. “Breaking curfew” should not result in police brutality.
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Any American citizen is ABSOLUTELY within their right to be upset if they are injured by authorities, breaking civil code or not.
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And you think this is a primary issue the OWS protesters should focus on? That police should never hurt anyone for any reason?
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I don't remember mentioning beatings, although police are usually allowed to use force in some cases.
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@gomerx oh no, there are plenty of legitemate reasons for police officers to harm people, peaceful protest just isn’t one of them.
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@gomerx 1 The outrage is coming from citizens not engaged in the protests who are seeing the violence.…
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@gomerx and don’t you see the police being a willing tool of oppression of the 1% a bit #disturbing?
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Dragging someone away isn’t what I would consider hurting people; use of force isn’t an issue. Excessive force, however, is.
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I've heard OWS people say that they're doing civil disobedience. Civil disobedience includes accepting consequences. That's all I'm saying
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I do not think the OWS protesters have made that the aim of their protest.
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@gomerx I agree but I don't think the rest of us are required to be silent about what we are seeing. A…
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I'm talking about outrage coming from OWS supporters. If you haven't seen it, we're reading different sources.
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@windigo It's hard to "petition the government for a redress of grievances" if you aren't allowed to "peaceably assemble."
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I think it's become a focus without other clear objectives. Pepper spray is petty compared to the real issues.
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I agree, “stop spraying me with pepper spray” isn’t going to get lasting change – but it’s probably interfering with the long-term approach.
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Well, I believe Ghandi was right. I guess we'll see.
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@gomerx Maybe it's your language that's confusing me. I'm an OWS "supporter" I can't be outraged?
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...and as a follow-up, yes; OWS could definitely use some more focus. Highlighting some core issues would be an excellent idea.
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If the public become outraged and demand channge, that's good. However pepper spray is not the main issue. It's a bridge to nowhere.
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This is true.
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What else would you expect?
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Refer to my original statement. They're calling what they're doing civil disobedience. It's not. It's just a mess.
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@gomerx by that logic, people who download or remix copyrighted material shouldn't whine when they get arrested.
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Right, if they're doing it as an act of civil disobedience. You are correct.
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You are fantastically stupid.
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@gomerx Please point me to the Thoreau, Ghandi, of MLK, Jr directive "Thou Shalt not Whine"
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Are you still arguing with this guy? You gotta stop doing this to yourself.
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@johnnynull I don't agree with @gomerx either, but no need to get nasty.
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Clearly we've not met.
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@johnnynull This is true.
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I've missed you telling me that. Without correction, how will I ever get better?
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I doubt that's your goal.
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I posted a Thoreau quote earlier. He doesn't use those specific words, though. OK YOU WIN!!!! :)
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I lol'd.
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I have often wondered that. I like to think I debate things in order to understand them better. Maybe I'm wrong.
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That's where face-to-face contact helps.
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I'd meditate on this for quite some time.
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I'll add that to the list of opinions on how I should run my life.
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Glad to hear you're trying to better yourself.
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the quote only says jail is the place for a just man, nothing about suffering in silence. CD is a tool for ~attention~ on injustice.
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So this entire movement is to focus attention on the misuse of pepper spray? Have you read "Civil Disobedience?"
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The civil rights movement was not about the misuse of firehoses either.
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the anti-war movement was not about the misuse of firearms. (kent state)
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But it had a goal. Thoreau was in jail to protest a specific law he opposed. Suffering pointed directly to the goal.
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The protesters arrested in Oakland at the latest raid are not complaining about police abuse, because the police responded reasonably.
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OK. I still don't see violation of a specific law to prove it is unjust. That is central to civil disobedience. This is just protest.
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A prime goal is overturning Citizens United. If $=speech and $=property, tents as property = free speech.
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and there is precedent http://ur1.ca/5varn
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Not sure I understand your math there. Still looks like protest, not civil disobedience.
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"Civil disobedience is the active, professed refusal to obey certain laws, demands, and commands of a govt, or of an occupying intl power."
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but call it whatever you like. I don't care. and neither do the protesters.
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Yes. Exactly.
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@johnnynull @gnomerx I find this line of discussion amusing.
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I'm just having a hard time understanding how a peaceful protest constitues "the active, professed refusal to obey certain laws..." See?
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That seems to be the case. Of course it depends in which context I interpret "context," relative to the DentiVerse, or in general?
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They actively refused to vacate public space where they assembled to petition for a redress of grievances. what's NOT to understand?
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@gomerx so, is my speeding to and from work Civil Disobedience? I refuse to obey the traffic laws of my area. Sounds like it fits the bill
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If your intention is to show the speed limit is unjust, yes.
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@gomerx the speed limit is lower than is warranted in the area I speak of, so enforcing might be unjust.
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I think they should throw napalm on your for this offense! /cc @gomerx
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The unjust law part. Were they gathered to protest the fact that the police were asking them to disperse?
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they purposely disobeyed Parks & Rec Dept rules that are in direct conflict with the constitution. Why does this bother you so much?
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OK. That seems fair.
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@johnnynull I doubt that will happen. I have been passed by cops while driving this stretch of road. It is aparent nobody respects the limit
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@gomerx Also, your definition says nothing about intention. Only the action taken. If intention matters, you should update that…
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I guess if OWS is all about changing "Parks & Rec Dept rules" maybe it would be easier to start a petition?
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It's been 20 years since I read Ghandi, but I'm pretty sure he called on non-violent resistance as a last resort.
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Which definition? I've consistently said civil disobedience is disobeying an unjust law with the intention of overturning it.
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That wasn't my definition. I was quoting @exador23.
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You have a good point though, that ignoring speed laws causes them to be uninforced and ineffective.
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Exercising Free Speech is not a last resort effort. Refusing orders to end said exercise of rights is just, and is civil disobedience.
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Those arrested peacefully are not complaining. Those abused are complaining, and it is effective. Now, what is your real issue here?
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It is one of many issues. all of which have been ignored for a long time, including endless petitions that merely get patronizing responses.
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So is your complaint that there are many issues? Why does this bother you so much? Is this just a semantic academic discussion?
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Having just repealed an unjust law here in Ohio after much hard work, I find arguments that the issues have been ignored unconvincing.
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I just feel that this movement has a right to be angry, but I fear there methods won't be effective.
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Yes.
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